tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2357316514436369105.post8590141826890796029..comments2024-03-11T15:40:37.015+00:00Comments on Theoretical Structural Archaeology: 32. Hadrian's Timber WallGeoff Carterhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01111820035762957610noreply@blogger.comBlogger26125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2357316514436369105.post-90583294425543349762010-02-03T09:00:08.640+00:002010-02-03T09:00:08.640+00:00Geoff
Thanks for the prompt response.
I would acce...Geoff<br />Thanks for the prompt response.<br />I would accept that a ditch is not necessary for a wall barrier (though clearly the Romans thought it sufficiently important to go the considerable effort of digging it), but I believe it would be necessary to provide fill for a box rampart (as you say in the article). So, if they couldn't dig a ditch along Whin Sill, how would they have been able to erect the box rampart?<br />My point about the turf wall is that, since it was the normal construction method of the Roman army, presumably they could throw it up very quickly - as quick as they could construct a box rampart. I don't think any evidence has been found of postholes under the turf wall.<br />Don't get me wrong, I actually like your explanation of the mysterious postholes as a temporary rampart. I can't, though, see that it would have been required along the whole length of the Wall.Stephen J. Murraynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2357316514436369105.post-9295565135938902032010-02-02T20:57:59.048+00:002010-02-02T20:57:59.048+00:00I am not aware of any evidence either way, I have ...I am not aware of any evidence either way, I have not checked the recent literature, and my work in based on the information compiled on the subject by Paul Bidwell and colleagues in TWM. [see note 1]. I think there may be evidence of a similar, but narrower section, under the Antonine Wall.<br /><br />The wall is an important and protected ancient monument, and archaeologists seldom get a chance to dig holes in it, and when they do, they tend to dig narrow trenches to minimise damage; with posts every 4’ it is possible to overlook them. <br /><br />I think it is naive to imagine the turf wall as simply an earth bank, without a timberwork it would not be stable or defendable.Geoff Carterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01111820035762957610noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2357316514436369105.post-55989231848788722472010-02-02T19:25:50.522+00:002010-02-02T19:25:50.522+00:00has anyone excavated the turf sections? I wonder i...has anyone excavated the turf sections? I wonder if they would discover the same posthole configuration <i>inside</i> the wall, instead of in front of it?chrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14434167376125139675noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2357316514436369105.post-66773919181768419022010-02-02T15:04:37.146+00:002010-02-02T15:04:37.146+00:00Hi Stephen, thanks for the comment.
The Whin Sill ...Hi Stephen, thanks for the comment.<br />The Whin Sill section has no ditch because they could not cut it into solid rock, though they did try in places. Your argument that a timber wall would not be required at this point would also apply to the stone wall. You do not need a ditch for either form of construction.<br /><br />There is no point in having a wall in any form with gaps in it, and this is the basis of the hypothesis that there was an initial barrier coast to coast. You cannot just built a barrier with turf and soil, and the ‘turf wall’ would be reinforced with timber. Remember the postholes in front of the wall were only noticed fairly recently, archaeologists had been concentrating on the stone wall. There are posthole formations associated with the Antonine Wall, which was also a ‘turf’ construction.Geoff Carterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01111820035762957610noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2357316514436369105.post-14265615231781204542010-02-02T08:42:50.092+00:002010-02-02T08:42:50.092+00:00Geoff
You imply that your box rampart would have b...Geoff<br />You imply that your box rampart would have been built the whole way across the country, but surely that wouldn't be required. The central section of the Wall, along Whin Sill, doesn't have a ditch because it doesn't need one. Presumably it wouldn't have needed a box rampart either. The whole western section of the Wall was originally built from turf. Now I don't know this to be the case, but I assume it was a much quicker construction process than building a stone wall, so again a box rampart would not be necessary. Also I believe that the berm in the turf section is typically about one third of the width that it is in the stone section.Stephen J. Murraynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2357316514436369105.post-67132579301157387082009-12-20T09:37:11.694+00:002009-12-20T09:37:11.694+00:00Great to hear from Dave, hope all is well with you...Great to hear from Dave, hope all is well with you and the good folk at Oak.Geoff Carterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01111820035762957610noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2357316514436369105.post-2801453159318874362009-12-18T13:40:53.503+00:002009-12-18T13:40:53.503+00:00Hi Geoff,
Stumbled across this on the QI forum,...Hi Geoff,<br /><br /> Stumbled across this on the QI forum, Fascinating article<br /><br />Long time no hear, I spoke with you often when you did work for Oak<br /><br />DavidDavid Hnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2357316514436369105.post-60295618117031212882009-10-07T17:52:19.072+01:002009-10-07T17:52:19.072+01:00Hi Geof,
Cannot believe that you have finished at ...Hi Geof,<br />Cannot believe that you have finished at last!<br />See you soon<br />Big hugs<br />Sophie<br />(p.s. pop in and see mum and dad at some point)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2357316514436369105.post-52825872195800638392009-09-21T09:01:30.730+01:002009-09-21T09:01:30.730+01:00Many thanks; I've a couple of images to go wit...Many thanks; I've a couple of images to go with the questions so I'll email you off listTim Hollandnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2357316514436369105.post-59788030125776711452009-09-20T20:48:31.095+01:002009-09-20T20:48:31.095+01:00Hi Tim,
I am always happy to try and engage with a...Hi Tim,<br />I am always happy to try and engage with any reader taking the time to read and comment; so fire away. [If it is pages – feel free to e-mail].Geoff Carterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01111820035762957610noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2357316514436369105.post-29872407232217038802009-09-20T20:39:02.483+01:002009-09-20T20:39:02.483+01:00Just found your site via the Naked Archeology Podc...Just found your site via the Naked Archeology Podcast; especially interested in your thoughts on Hadrian's Wall wooden defenses; seems really sensible extrapolation, which most archeologists seem reluctant to enter into. I've got a number of observations on Roman buildings at Caerleon and Housteads that I've not been able to get an engineering/structural answer to; is here an appropriate place to pose them?Tim Hollandnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2357316514436369105.post-67354515740539581042009-08-29T10:25:51.999+01:002009-08-29T10:25:51.999+01:00Thank you Odin’s Raven & Angie for reading and...Thank you Odin’s Raven & Angie for reading and commenting; at TSA we welcome all religious persuasions, - as long as you acknowledge the existence of gravity!Geoff Carterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01111820035762957610noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2357316514436369105.post-63457342174183646162009-08-28T23:29:25.627+01:002009-08-28T23:29:25.627+01:00Very interesting and impressive. I'm glad I fo...Very interesting and impressive. I'm glad I followed up the reference to your work on Heathen History.Odin's Ravenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10138497698247404499noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2357316514436369105.post-43816159875988508552009-08-24T18:21:15.728+01:002009-08-24T18:21:15.728+01:00Hi Jeoff,
As you aware I know nothing about struc...Hi Jeoff, <br />As you aware I know nothing about structural Archaeology but when you mentioned your theory i was intuiged, Its a Facinating interesting read. <br />Thanks Anjie ScottAnjiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01018918006410030441noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2357316514436369105.post-90478277844230510972009-08-21T13:21:22.142+01:002009-08-21T13:21:22.142+01:00Thanks Derek,- that counts as a peer review round ...Thanks Derek,- that counts as a peer review round here!Geoff Carterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01111820035762957610noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2357316514436369105.post-17176329378111626722009-08-21T09:50:29.587+01:002009-08-21T09:50:29.587+01:00A really fascinating read. Convincing stuff! Cheer...A really fascinating read. Convincing stuff! Cheers!Derekhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07163305215867955394noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2357316514436369105.post-28659992586063540212009-08-17T13:25:59.222+01:002009-08-17T13:25:59.222+01:00Hi Chris, thank you for your comment. You are bot...Hi Chris, thank you for your comment. You are both correct in that it is thought that Romans did use prefabricated components for forts, but the real secret is in using ‘standard’ components. <br />I have not defined the jointing, but a simple notch cut with an adze creating a lap joint would suffice, held in place by the weight of timbers above. We know large iron nails were used, but once you look at the maths and logistics, you would need tonnes of iron, so I think nails would have been used sparingly, if at all, in the general run of construction. The Timber wall and the eastern part of the stone wall are about the same width, so timber work like a hoarding could be reused for the ‘stone’ wall.<br /><br />From the study of inscriptions and structural analysis, we know the stone wall was built in sections by individual military units, and starting in several places at once. However, given this was to some extent ‘enemy territory’ securing a perimeter with a static defence, albeit very long, was actually the most efficient use of manpower. To protect this vast construction project, of which the wall was merely the frontline of a military complex of forts and other assets, would require a huge screening force deployed in depth, probably on both sides. Having a military corridor with the timber wall to the north and the Vallum to the south, and with no gaps, minimises the resources deployed to protect the works and other assets.Geoff Carterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01111820035762957610noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2357316514436369105.post-90113628100967267942009-08-17T04:40:35.635+01:002009-08-17T04:40:35.635+01:00Thank you for this fascinating article Mr. Carter!...Thank you for this fascinating article Mr. Carter! <br /><br />Discussing it with my girlfriend here, who is a carpenter, she thinks that the Romans would not have needed 2.5 million trees - but could have rather constructed the ditch and wooden rampart in sections with movable forms, possibly pre-fabricated, or linked together with notches. I wonder if they first could have built a line of stone fortlets, then starting at one end, or both, built a section of wooden wall between turrets, then constructing the stone wall behind it. The wooden rampart would have protected the front of the stone wall from attack, while a mobile unit encamped at the end of the wall would have protected enemies from flanking the wall during construction. Once the stone rampart connecting the two turrets was completed, the timber wall could have been disassembled in sections, then moved up to the next section between turrets and reinstalled. <br /><br />This strikes me as something the efficiency-minded Romans would have considered. Perhaps there is some way to uncover in what order the posts were set, which might reveal if the wall were built in this manner.<br /><br />Thanks for your consideration, and best of luck with your research.<br /><br />C. Woodchrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14434167376125139675noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2357316514436369105.post-5428565948510040282009-08-16T18:44:40.721+01:002009-08-16T18:44:40.721+01:00Thanks David, - you picked my longest article to d...Thanks David, - you picked my longest article to date, but feel free to read the other 32 shorter articles at your leisure; <br />I should mention that there is a similar, but narrower box rampart evident on at least one site on the Antonine Wall, but it’s Lengyel & LBK next, - so I will have to find some longhouses for you in Scotland; [Meadowend Farm, Kennet,Clackmannan would be good place to look!]<br />An interesting film, luckily they had captured a native sawmill.Geoff Carterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01111820035762957610noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2357316514436369105.post-7834540522106918932009-08-16T16:38:27.280+01:002009-08-16T16:38:27.280+01:00Well Geoff, you managed what others have tried for...Well Geoff, you managed what others have tried for years to do... lead me into reading a whole article! And being interested and intruiged... <br /><br />nice one...<br /><br />This short film I found may interest you too, as it brought the pits and posts to life for me.<br /><br />http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MTPKUI9zs_o<br /><br />Roman legionaries build fortress wall - an amazing re-enactment of part of what you are talking about.<br /><br />DavidBAJRhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09124028864959764080noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2357316514436369105.post-3510004098044744182009-08-15T11:50:02.704+01:002009-08-15T11:50:02.704+01:00Hi Diana,
It is a small world on the internet, but...Hi Diana,<br />It is a small world on the internet, but we share the same weather, which is a special bond!!Geoff Carterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01111820035762957610noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2357316514436369105.post-5729050648747421292009-08-15T11:40:52.707+01:002009-08-15T11:40:52.707+01:00Hello Geoff,
I am a new Twitter compatriot and jo...Hello Geoff,<br /><br />I am a new Twitter compatriot and jousting partner of your good friend, Vin Brown, who publicised you article on the Roman Wall in the Hexham Courant on the Twitter site. By a billion to one chance, I actually live 2 miles from the VINDOLANDA site in Northumberland - how strange is that? The article was marvellous, I have a deep-rooted facination with history and archeology. It's wonderful to be able to follow your progress on your site and by blog. Best wishes, Diana.xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03263776230260552740noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2357316514436369105.post-78570808369049960062009-08-14T19:38:08.346+01:002009-08-14T19:38:08.346+01:00Hi Tim
. . . a virtual archaeologist lives - See h...Hi Tim<br />. . . a virtual archaeologist lives - See he has legs & moves ..<br />http://www.hexham-courant.co.uk/news/news_at_a_glance/hadrian_s_wall_was_built_of_wood_1_598511?referrerPath=homeGeoff Carterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01111820035762957610noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2357316514436369105.post-87437245776096841642009-08-14T18:24:24.739+01:002009-08-14T18:24:24.739+01:00Hi Geoff
Well alright!
http://www.archaeology.o...Hi Geoff<br /><br /> Well alright!<br /><br />http://www.archaeology.org/news/Timothy Reidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10027256238142330766noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2357316514436369105.post-35568100162401654332009-08-01T03:03:52.765+01:002009-08-01T03:03:52.765+01:00Thanks for reading Lindsay, and taking the time to...Thanks for reading Lindsay, and taking the time to comment, I value your opinion, I know you appreciate you nature of warfare and the military mind in this context.Geoff Carterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01111820035762957610noreply@blogger.com