tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2357316514436369105.post8027414991098704962..comments2024-03-11T15:40:37.015+00:00Comments on Theoretical Structural Archaeology: 39. Interlace Theory; Understanding WoodhengeGeoff Carterhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01111820035762957610noreply@blogger.comBlogger20125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2357316514436369105.post-1155314229490762242010-12-01T15:05:33.149+00:002010-12-01T15:05:33.149+00:00Thanks for kind sentiment, and I hope enjoy your w...Thanks for kind sentiment, and I hope enjoy your winter solstice festival.Geoff Carterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01111820035762957610noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2357316514436369105.post-76497987023625540512010-12-01T14:30:55.904+00:002010-12-01T14:30:55.904+00:00Thanks Geoff. I hope that your operation is succes...Thanks Geoff. I hope that your operation is successful. I know moving house and having repairs done are real nuisances. Relax over Christmas, and I look forward to seeing more of your always thoughtful, ingenious and well-informed work next year.Odin's Ravenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10138497698247404499noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2357316514436369105.post-74092580588448769612010-12-01T13:26:02.313+00:002010-12-01T13:26:02.313+00:00Hi there again O's R,
I recently had issues wi...Hi there again O's R,<br />I recently had issues with buildings in the real world, and had to move house under trying circumstances. In addition I have to have to have a small opp soon, so I have had to put back Work on the Woodhenge article till the new year.<br /><br />Very sorry, but it's important, so I want to get it right.<br /><br />In the meantime I have thrown together something on the levelling bulldozer of Romans civilisation - just to show I'm still alive and kicking.<br /><br />However, if any producers want to do a "Woodhenge / Stonehenge explained" I'll take on all comers for a very modest fee!Geoff Carterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01111820035762957610noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2357316514436369105.post-81099095937710767032010-12-01T12:15:37.062+00:002010-12-01T12:15:37.062+00:00When will you be able to post the next instalment,...When will you be able to post the next instalment, explaining what the building was used for? <br /><br />What would it have looked like to a visitor approaching it? Would it have had beams sticking out at all angles like some gigantic Roc's nest? Would the walls have been timber, whitewashed wattle and daub, brick, stone or what? Where would the entrances have been, and might there we signs of avenues leading up to them or outbuildings, courtyards, farms and gardens, estate walls etc? Was this an isolated building or a town centre?Odin's Ravenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10138497698247404499noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2357316514436369105.post-28384797514882051272010-07-24T12:54:13.648+01:002010-07-24T12:54:13.648+01:00Hi O R,
This discovery demonstrates the simplisti...Hi O R,<br /><br />This discovery demonstrates the simplistic way Prehistorians think; it is round structure, apparently formed by postholes, and is near Stonehenge, therefore; "..It's a timber equivalent to Stonehenge” QED; [Prof Vince Gaffney].<br /><br />It is only a geophysical anomaly, and as an archaeologist, I would have to wait and see the evidence of a proper excavation plan, before I could pass judgement.<br /><br />It is important to remember that timber buildings can be built for a variety of differing reasons, and that they had a lifespan. Architecture creates the covered spaces and structures that society requires, within the limits of the resources at their disposal. <br /><br />To conclude that all structures of the same shape, in this case circular, had the same function is simple-minded, and demonstrably false. However, it is the way that many Prehistorians view the world, projecting their own confusion and structural literacy onto the past.Geoff Carterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01111820035762957610noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2357316514436369105.post-51034762734669931502010-07-24T00:12:05.554+01:002010-07-24T00:12:05.554+01:00Is the rumoured discovery of another woodhenge nea...Is the rumoured discovery of another woodhenge near Stonehenge likely to relate to a similar building? <br />How many of these things could have been needed or supported by the local population?Odin's Ravenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10138497698247404499noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2357316514436369105.post-58668822490935705352010-07-22T16:10:46.008+01:002010-07-22T16:10:46.008+01:00wow this is so interesting.
p.s thnks x stopping b...wow this is so interesting.<br />p.s thnks x stopping by!!Claudia Q.https://www.blogger.com/profile/10077948975068922472noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2357316514436369105.post-62077261758337604072010-07-21T18:47:43.286+01:002010-07-21T18:47:43.286+01:00Hi Chris,
Thanks, this is an intriguing site. I wo...Hi Chris,<br />Thanks, this is an intriguing site. I would have to see a report to able to comment. although it's a lot of trouble to go to if it is not a building. <br /><br />I see what you mean about reciprocal structures.<br />Interlace is built up in layers from the bottom to top, and is as strong as possible, and lacks the subtlety of reciprocal structures.Geoff Carterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01111820035762957610noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2357316514436369105.post-82792725794970306222010-07-21T18:18:07.030+01:002010-07-21T18:18:07.030+01:00Another fascinating article, Geoff! I came here sp...Another fascinating article, Geoff! I came here specifically because I wondered if you had heard of this discovery, closer to my neck of the woods:<br /><br />http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2010/07/100720-woodhenge-stonehenge-ohio-fort-ancient-science/<br /><br />And your discussion of interlacing members reminded me of reciprocal frames, which may apply to Woodhenge (though I'm sure you're aware of it already):<br /><br />http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reciprocal_framechrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14434167376125139675noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2357316514436369105.post-82495227116127068662010-07-17T01:00:13.806+01:002010-07-17T01:00:13.806+01:00Thanks Martha,
I have spent 6 months working on Wo...Thanks Martha,<br />I have spent 6 months working on Woodhenge, but I did pick the most complex building I know! In my defence I keep noticing things, and everything has a knock on effect - even in reverse engineering.<br />It not enough to know it's a building, knowing where the windows were positioned is what interests me.<br /><br />I will bare your comments in mind as I write part III.<br /><br />I hope there will be still enough doubt and ambiguity to keep it real; modelling 4000 year old structures from their foundations is not an exact science.Geoff Carterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01111820035762957610noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2357316514436369105.post-88465373382961607472010-07-16T04:35:59.816+01:002010-07-16T04:35:59.816+01:00I think it's important that people who read yo...I think it's important that people who read your blog realize that you are not just "imagining" a structure -- that you have studied the relationships of the postholes as well as what is known about the technology used at the time, then tried a number of different models until you find the one that works -- "the technically correct way it could be configured." <br /><br />Readers who are not familiar with your way of working may not realize the extensive amount of time you spend studying the possibilities before settling on a model. It might be tedious to read about it, but it's important that readers know the amount of study you have put into this.Martha Murphyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02539396507098000692noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2357316514436369105.post-37347447067390878892010-07-15T17:30:14.662+01:002010-07-15T17:30:14.662+01:00Hi Martha,
TSA is a methodology; a way of thinkin...Hi Martha,<br /><br />TSA is a methodology; a way of thinking about the evidence, and it is very different from the way that students and others, consciously or subconsciously have been taught to view this type of evidence. It has taken me twenty years to develop, and I would love to able disseminate and teach it in a systemic way. [this is article 39].<br /><br />Woodhenge and interlace theory is a bit ‘cut to the chase’, but my relationship with Newcastle University is now officially over, and I have to find a new route to market.<br />My PhD was going to start with 4-post structures and work up, but I will have starved to death by the time I get to really big stuff. So I am going straight for one of biggest sites in the Prehistoric toy box. <br /><br />Prehistory, as taught, is as often about belief, in that the evidence we find is seen to derive from people who spiritually motivated, whereas TSA looks for technical motivation in things like the placing of postholes. <br /><br />The point about interlace theory, it gives you the basic rules of assembly to build a CAD model of this type of building; I started using CAD in 1990; but soon realised that sticking a cone on top of cylinder and calling it a roundhouse was of limited value. Postholes are about building and architecture, and once your can understand their structural relationships you can build them timber-by-timber in virtual reality. <br /><br />The reason modelling is time consuming and has to be accurate, in that is has to able to stand up to scrutiny of being rebuilt virtually. It is not an opinion.<br /><br />How modelling works; as I have said this before, it’s a jigsaw without the box, you don’t even know if you have all the bits. However, just like jigsaw, if you are dealing with a building foundation there is usually only one technically correct way it could be configured. Just like a pot, the bits either fit or they don’t. So a narrative of “ I tried that and it did not work” would be very tedious. <br /><br />However, I am very conscious of some rapid changes of gear in my articles, so once I nailed Class Ei buildings, I’ll do something gentler, probably on Four-post Granaries – if you remind me.Geoff Carterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01111820035762957610noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2357316514436369105.post-61599199771924560952010-07-15T15:27:39.255+01:002010-07-15T15:27:39.255+01:00Hi, Geoff,
I know that your "modelling" ...Hi, Geoff,<br />I know that your "modelling" amounts to extensive study of the postholes and their relationships to each other. The experimental nature of it doesn't come across very much in the finished posts. How about a chapter on the nature of your "behind the scenes" work on this.<br />MarthaMartha Murphyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02539396507098000692noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2357316514436369105.post-1819850498685827942010-07-11T19:11:41.143+01:002010-07-11T19:11:41.143+01:00Hi Ned,
As I see it, it is the job of professional...Hi Ned,<br />As I see it, it is the job of professional archaeologists to interpret the sites they excavate; if they they don't do it, there will always be some academic who feel obliged to make something up.<br /><br />My work was felt to have no merit at Newcastle University as it does not address 'Iron Age roundhouse Cosmologies' - How people we have never met, felt about living in buildings we have never seen!<br /><br />As a professional archaeologist, I cannot address this conceit, since I can only deal with the evidence.Geoff Carterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01111820035762957610noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2357316514436369105.post-52453875842891778132010-07-11T18:23:44.650+01:002010-07-11T18:23:44.650+01:00Dear Geoff
I shall have a look at Mount Pleasant ...Dear Geoff<br /><br />I shall have a look at Mount Pleasant (although not with any kind of CAD). I can see your point already though about the differences between each structure.<br /><br />As for 'ritual' significance, I'd give it plenty of time to be overturned in Britain and parts of northern Europe (you can spot the British academic papers by the phrases they use, generally). It seems to have taken hold for an entire generation.<br /><br />Nededward.peglerhttp://armchairprehistory.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2357316514436369105.post-82889522634518282152010-07-09T18:27:01.053+01:002010-07-09T18:27:01.053+01:00PS. Ned, thanks for your interest.
If you have t...PS. Ned, thanks for your interest. <br />If you have the time have a look at Mount Pleasant IV, in relation to the last figure in the article; [Try drawing in some ties between the outer and inner rings].<br />The deeper significance of Interlace Theory is that will eventually allow anyone, [preferably with CAD] to understand these structures, disenfranchising many of the existing stake holders.<br />I sincerely hope the writing is on the wall for 'Ritual' as an explanation of postholes.Geoff Carterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01111820035762957610noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2357316514436369105.post-59633403150601880822010-07-09T18:04:54.624+01:002010-07-09T18:04:54.624+01:00Hi Ned,
As you may know, I consider architecture t...Hi Ned,<br />As you may know, I consider architecture to be a product of culture, environment and raw materials. English oak timber building exists without parallel anywhere - except those parts of Europe with similar conditions. [There is nothing like Westminster Hall in Africa - yet it still exists!]<br />TSA is not a really a comparative method, and while I do know of annular buildings elsewhere, I will not mention them because they are not relevant. <br />TSA is about reverse engineering buildings and structures from their foundations, and it assumes that each structure will be unique, and that it should be considered on its own terms. <br />It has been my experience that interlace theory works for other Ei structures, certainly those for which we have a complete plan.<br />I think Stanton Drew is unexcavated so I cannot comment - it could be a Tudor maze as far as I can tell from the Geophysics!<br />Archaeology has to move on from simply looking for, and comparing shapes of things; all square buildings are not the same, and nor are all circular structures.<br />Prehistorians get away with assumptions and concepts that are so simplistic, that would be considered ridiculous in periods where we have other sources of evidence.<br /><br />There is a lot more to come, but I had to start somewhere, so I hope you will be patient with me; modelling has to be precise and accurate. It is quite different from the opinion driven, and faith- based archaeology, that is usual in this period, in that it is does not deal with cosmologies, rituals, beliefs, perception or symbolism - only postholes, and the possible structural relationships of the posts they once contained.Geoff Carterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01111820035762957610noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2357316514436369105.post-41467659282658649832010-07-09T10:45:38.679+01:002010-07-09T10:45:38.679+01:00Dear Geoff
Thanks for posting this. I like the id...Dear Geoff<br /><br />Thanks for posting this. I like the idea. It's going to take some time to sink in and I will be re-reading this and the LBK house posts, I suspect.<br /><br />Are their any examples of documented 'ethnic' building techniques that use these methods on a smaller scale?<br /><br />Also I presume that it's relatively easy to transfer this idea to the Sanctuary. Have you given much thought to Stanton Drew?<br /><br />Nededward peglerhttp://armchairprehistory.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2357316514436369105.post-39216559957200134882010-07-05T16:36:05.006+01:002010-07-05T16:36:05.006+01:00Thanks O R; the foundations of a building [posthol...Thanks O R; the foundations of a building [postholes] are mostly there to support the roof, you can use hurdles and awning to divide the interior!<br />You have to bare in mind that this building is 150' across, one of the biggest timber building ever built in prehistory, larger than any Neolithic longhouse [in all directions]. Think of the way English timber frame buildings are constructed, and scale it up. <br /><br />In the next post I will show it worked as a building, and consider issues like the nature of the internal space.Geoff Carterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01111820035762957610noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2357316514436369105.post-75525306948007215692010-07-05T13:24:32.591+01:002010-07-05T13:24:32.591+01:00Congratulations! That's ingenious and interest...Congratulations! That's ingenious and interesting. <br /><br />Why did it have to be so complex? Might the roof panels have been movable awnings or hurdles rather than fixed thatch or slats? It seems that the emphasis was on the roof rather than on the internal space. Might it have been used as an observatory, opening particular sections to focus on certain stars at certain times?Odin's Ravenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10138497698247404499noreply@blogger.com