tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2357316514436369105.post7327357638508187683..comments2024-03-11T15:40:37.015+00:00Comments on Theoretical Structural Archaeology: 40. Reverse engineering the VallumGeoff Carterhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01111820035762957610noreply@blogger.comBlogger22125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2357316514436369105.post-67238269735174401072024-02-01T16:37:33.983+00:002024-02-01T16:37:33.983+00:00@Geoff - Thanks very much for this - answering, to...@Geoff - Thanks very much for this - answering, to my satisfaction, a problem that has long plagued me. I was inspired to link it from my blog!<br /><br />https://charltonteaching.blogspot.com/2024/01/foundation-ditch-for-unfinished-road.html<br /><br />One point. I have seen it said that outside of towns. the main stretches of Roman roads would have been surfaced in gravel, not by stone slabs; and this seems to make sense to me:<br /><br />e.g. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QMtw1I_ro84<br /><br />What do you think about this dispute - would the Vallum road have been intended to be surfaced by stone slabs, or gravel? <br /><br /><br />Bruce Charltonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09615189090601688535noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2357316514436369105.post-66611339087988121012011-02-03T15:55:43.268+00:002011-02-03T15:55:43.268+00:00Hi Odin's Raven,
I have been off 'work'...Hi Odin's Raven,<br />I have been off 'work' following a minor op; but I am now back in action.<br />New posts will follow shortly, but I am also detained working on an outline for a book.<br /><br />Anybody who thinks the neolithic/ bronze age folk were busy creating astronomical structures - but were incapable of building roofed building is frankly a crank.<br />These 'timber circles' are buildings & just because they are circular, it does not make them the same thing as 'stone circles'. <br />Durrington Walls is a building[s]. End of. <br /><br />Re; Measuring systems; I am aware of these ideas, but it is important to understand what are the important dimensions in the structure you are studying, before defining their metrics.Geoff Carterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01111820035762957610noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2357316514436369105.post-53315213794509613252011-02-02T15:53:33.498+00:002011-02-02T15:53:33.498+00:00Hi Geoff,
I hope that you had a pleasant Christma...Hi Geoff,<br /><br />I hope that you had a pleasant Christmas and New Year, and are preparing to regale us with more interesting information!<br /><br />I managed to make a brief visit to Newgrange and was surprised to find that Charon's Ferry across the Boyne (they actually have a model of a coracle beside the bridge and path), has been upgraded to a tour bus that takes parties to the land of the dead. I suspect that the 6 Euros return fare is cheaper than the silver penny for the one way trip!<br /><br />If you haven't come across it already, you might be interested in this site http://chiefio.wordpress.com/2011/02/02/marden-henge-and-durrington-walls-henge/<br /><br />He has had previous posts on ancient metrology, and this one suggests that henges were probably schools for learning celestial navigation and surveying, incorporating a lot of ratios and measuring systems and standard distances to local places, mostly based on the circumference of the earth.<br /><br />I wonder whether your research on posts and holes has revealed any standards of measurement such as Thom's megalithic yard? <br /><br />He references http://www.celticnz.co.nz/ which puts the ancient navigators and sailors on steroids. Celts and Vikings visiting New Zealand - wow!<br />However, Doutre's ideas directly challenge the notion that places like Woodhenge had a roof, so you may be interested in considering them.<br /><br />"Some archaeologist have explored the theory that these post structures might have been roofed-over buildings, but have had to concede that the distribution of posts would infer otherwise. The circles would have worked well as short posts, say up to belly-button height, where length and angle measurements could be conveniently taken over their top surfaces from a central master-hub post position. These 5000-years later, the northern circle can still teach initiates scientific principles of navigation and the lunar cycles. The measurement of 25.2' recurring at a couple of positions is simply 24 Greek feet or 12 Assyrian cubits ... encoded into the English landscape long before there were any Greeks or Assyrians." <br />http://www.celticnz.co.nz/DurringtonWalls/Durrington%20Henge%209.htmOdin's Ravenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10138497698247404499noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2357316514436369105.post-84067745301554757242010-12-17T17:18:30.955+00:002010-12-17T17:18:30.955+00:00Season's Greetings Odin's Raven,
I am hop...Season's Greetings Odin's Raven,<br /><br />I am hoping that 'interlace theory' will work for Irish structures, of the Early Bronze Age. It was a very important place at that time and I would expect to find similar buildings. <br />Navan Fort is an interesting late Irish example of this type of structure; I have discussed it above, [see the Labels].Geoff Carterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01111820035762957610noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2357316514436369105.post-25687499580786012972010-12-17T16:36:34.854+00:002010-12-17T16:36:34.854+00:00Hi Geoff,
Thanks for that. Not all nice ideas act...Hi Geoff, <br />Thanks for that. Not all nice ideas actually work out, eh?<br /><br />Do you intend to extend your investigations and ideas beyond England? <br />Here is a site about Newgrange and its environs.<br />http://www.carrowkeel.com/sites/boyne/cursus.html<br />It mentions that there were timber circles there, so I wonder if they might have had 'birds-nest'/ Woodhenge buildings of the sort you envisage.<br /><br />Best wishes for Christmas and New Year.Odin's Ravenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10138497698247404499noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2357316514436369105.post-71017652724253861282010-12-14T15:30:43.359+00:002010-12-14T15:30:43.359+00:00Hi O's R,
Again, sadly, the levels would not w...Hi O's R,<br />Again, sadly, the levels would not work, but as you say, water supply is a very important consideration.<br /><br />However, there are aqueducts known from the forts, and what is interesting is that some are fed from water sources north of the wall. <br />This tells us that military control clearly extended north of the Wall. <br />[I think this was the case at Halton Chesters, Chesters, & Great Chesters].Geoff Carterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01111820035762957610noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2357316514436369105.post-8053990326423002902010-12-14T14:40:23.691+00:002010-12-14T14:40:23.691+00:00Another way-out idea. Could it have been the base ...Another way-out idea. Could it have been the base for an aqueduct that was never built? The garrison along the wall would have been like an elongated city, who presumably would have wanted water. There was a TV programme last night on the ancient world, which mentioned that aqueducts sometimes ran beside roads.That could allow for the steeper portions having legs of different length, letting the top be sufficiently level. Presumably there must be springs and streams nearby which could have supplied the water.It might have been part of the propaganda to impress and corrupt the natives with the amenities of civilistion after the legions had whacked them.Odin's Ravenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10138497698247404499noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2357316514436369105.post-32291156486221270372010-12-09T23:18:31.435+00:002010-12-09T23:18:31.435+00:00Thanks Steve, I hope there is more to come on Hadr...Thanks Steve, I hope there is more to come on Hadrian's Wall.Geoff Carterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01111820035762957610noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2357316514436369105.post-5535580536934212142010-12-09T22:31:34.516+00:002010-12-09T22:31:34.516+00:00Fantastic post; Excellent Blog.
Still trying to p...Fantastic post; Excellent Blog.<br /><br />Still trying to process all the details.<br /><br />Keep up the fine work!Stevenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2357316514436369105.post-91130225073531308892010-12-09T17:24:52.578+00:002010-12-09T17:24:52.578+00:00Thanks Michael,
Postholes are the features we find...Thanks Michael,<br />Postholes are the features we find most often in UK archaeology, but understand the least - but they are the buildings and structures we are looking for.Geoff Carterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01111820035762957610noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2357316514436369105.post-34397553713657955562010-12-09T16:47:04.179+00:002010-12-09T16:47:04.179+00:00Great blog. Friggin post holes, I mean wow. :-)
m...Great blog. Friggin post holes, I mean wow. :-)<br /><br />m-Michael-https://www.blogger.com/profile/17137291506357159071noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2357316514436369105.post-11250345100933108882010-12-07T18:17:45.480+00:002010-12-07T18:17:45.480+00:00Dear Ned,
Thanks for taking the time to read and c...Dear Ned,<br />Thanks for taking the time to read and comment, there is danger in ascribing human motivation to specific archaeology, but engineering is often self explanatory, and you are on firmer ground.<br />That it is a road, I think, as you say, is obvious; beyond this, Hadrian's motivations, aspirations, and strategic vision, that really is getting close to 'history'. As is the interesting question, why was it abandoned?<br />I am working on a follow up, which I hope to finish before the government sends me to a camp for the work-shy.Geoff Carterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01111820035762957610noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2357316514436369105.post-54322552606601347632010-12-07T17:01:10.804+00:002010-12-07T17:01:10.804+00:00Dear Geoff
Excellent article. Funny how it takes ...Dear Geoff<br /><br />Excellent article. Funny how it takes someone telling you the obvious to realise it's obvious. I also like the way your discussion suggests possible motives and circumstances for past actions which are otherwise lost.<br /><br />Adding a human historical aspect to archaeology is always difficult and, even if wrong, it gives you something to think about that pits and bits rarely do.<br /><br />Dare I ask, are you thinking of writing your wall-work up and submitting it to the bears?<br /><br />Strangely all this talk of work for work's sake makes me think of Nazi Germany... or quite a few modern states. I suppose you were at the height of empire when such things could be undertaken.<br /><br />NedEdward Peglerhttp://armchairprehistory.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2357316514436369105.post-80629658558630533502010-12-03T21:09:25.841+00:002010-12-03T21:09:25.841+00:00Hi Tim,
Good to be back, I do feel guilty when I a...Hi Tim,<br />Good to be back, I do feel guilty when I am detained on other matters.<br /><br />I think I read it was Augustus that introduced the idea of keeping the legions busy in engineering and other works. 'Painting the stones white' on a monumental scale.<br /> <br />I don't think this was case here; this is part of an attempt to build a solid frontier.<br />re. WOGE; it is quite difficult find interesting sites. I am sorry if they have proved difficult, I Want them to be solved in a week - any longer and you wonder if you misjudged it. Most of mine have been fairly well known in European prehistory. [not 101]<br />You can only put up Stonehenge once, and it is meant to be a bit of detective puzzle; unless you are lucky.<br /><br />I have no idea where to find Heather's - I looked in all the ovious spots;<br />WOGE 103<br />http://woge20.blogspot.com/2010/11/woge-103.html<br />But it does not mean I wont find it.Geoff Carterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01111820035762957610noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2357316514436369105.post-84685143293140859042010-12-03T19:33:01.470+00:002010-12-03T19:33:01.470+00:00Hi Geoff
Good to see you back!
I was considering...Hi Geoff<br /><br />Good to see you back!<br /><br />I was considering the value of a make work project to keep legionaries busy and fit whether the road was important to the wall or an unnecessary convenience.<br /><br />The road may have been such a program that was abandoned when the work force{legions) were needed elsewhere? Just a thought.<br /><br />Ps. As you know I am really bad at the WOGE so in the future do not hesitate to dumb it down for your simpler guests like me. <br /><br />Peace:)Timothy Reidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10027256238142330766noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2357316514436369105.post-62640226491557061652010-12-01T15:02:13.658+00:002010-12-01T15:02:13.658+00:00Small world Doug; I worked for Philip Crummy; I su...Small world Doug; I worked for Philip Crummy; I supervised some of the excavations at Culver St; Colchester, biggest, ugliest, most complex, hole in the ground I was ever involved with.<br /><br />I think writing fiction, re-enactment, feature films, and gaming, all have legitimate questions to ask of archaeology, which in turn force archaeologists to think about the past in different ways.<br /><br />I am trying to present my research in a new way, making use of a new type of media to do so. Having material universally available, in colour,in any language, and linked to similar material, engenders a different approach to writing. <br />There is a lot more I could do, and many fellow bloggers are already doing it.[resources!]<br />There are some great detective stories on the Wall, all based on attention to detail.<br />Good luck with the book, I hope my next article will give you more background, as I have a few more observations to make about the process.Geoff Carterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01111820035762957610noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2357316514436369105.post-47716719400808641362010-12-01T13:54:21.938+00:002010-12-01T13:54:21.938+00:00I'll be very interested in that one Geoff, one...I'll be very interested in that one Geoff, one of the ideas I have for the future is a novel that takes the wall from it's first days to the end when Rome cut Britain off; something like Edward Rutherfurd's Sarum.<br /><br />Personally, I love archaeological reports. When I lived in Melrose I must have read Curle's book about Trimontium thrice. For my latest book Hero of Rome, I relied on Phil Crummy's City of Victory to help me paint a picture of Roman Colchester. I never take someone else's conclusions for granted - sometimes when you're living it through your characters you get a different idea - but all that wonderful archaeological detail helps you build the foundations.Doughttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10909280645811414303noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2357316514436369105.post-66034758095186074652010-12-01T13:43:17.104+00:002010-12-01T13:43:17.104+00:00Hi Doug,
Great to hear you write; so you will know...Hi Doug,<br />Great to hear you write; so you will know the problem of knowing what and how to write. "The devils in the detail", - and I'm a bit between a rock and a hard place on that one. The detail is important, but often boring. [Few people read archaeological reports for fun]<br />I am trying to write for a variety of different audiences, so I look for the key incite-full detail, and I try to hold back other things, or put them in a drawing. I hope any more specialist readers will be able to fill in the blanks, and make the connections for themselves.<br /><br />I still going to have to write a further article to cover the bigger picture, and how both the Timber Wall and Vallum fit with it.Geoff Carterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01111820035762957610noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2357316514436369105.post-23704917132575923122010-12-01T13:15:09.532+00:002010-12-01T13:15:09.532+00:00Thanks Geoff, I stumbled on your blog through a Tw...Thanks Geoff, I stumbled on your blog through a Twitter reference today and I'm looking forward to reading your back catalogue. I do a bit of writing and it's the tiny details most people don't know about that can sometimes make a big difference.Doughttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10909280645811414303noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2357316514436369105.post-78397806655483332082010-12-01T13:02:12.877+00:002010-12-01T13:02:12.877+00:00Hi Doug, Thanks for the comment. What I think is ...Hi Doug, Thanks for the comment. What I think is that the Romans had a pool of less skilled labour for basic physical tasks like ditch digging. This freed up the skilled army units for the more specialised building.<br />Work tends to organised in seasons, and I suspect the Vallum was dug in a single season.<br />The sourcing suitable materials for the road bed would be a longer term project.<br /><br />Hi Odin's Raven<br />That's a great idea that has to be considered as a possibility, but sadly the levels don't really work, and bits of it are simply too steep. <br /><br />The way the trench is built up over soft ground at White Moss was once described as "like a canal", but this is consistent with it being a trench for a road bed.Geoff Carterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01111820035762957610noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2357316514436369105.post-40374447806240057272010-12-01T11:46:30.324+00:002010-12-01T11:46:30.324+00:00Could it have been a temporary canal to transport ...Could it have been a temporary canal to transport supplies and construction material for the wall? Maybe the mounds were for escorting troops or guards to have a better view of the countryside and to protect and conceal the workers digging the canal?Odin's Ravenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10138497698247404499noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2357316514436369105.post-33788233397985537802010-12-01T11:37:20.184+00:002010-12-01T11:37:20.184+00:00Great article and another remarkable insight into ...Great article and another remarkable insight into Hadrian's Wall. You make a well-structured argument for the vallum's purpose as a potential roadway, but as someone who has helped build roads (tamperman, Tilcon: Haltwhistle 1974) I have a problem with the theory. Roads are, and as far as I'm aware, always have been, built in relatively short stretches for reasons of efficiency, ease of supply and use of manpower. I'm not an engineer or an archaeologist, but I can't imagine a scenario where someone would build a 74 mile foundation trench and then go back to the beginning to fill it in. I also wonder if Roman engineers, who were as you point out remarkably efficient, would start a project without sourcing the materials (the backfill) to complete at least part of it?Doughttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10909280645811414303noreply@blogger.com